[Malcolm Armsteen]

And will every other region have the same help?

Guess.
If I was Welsh or Cornish I'd be fucking angry now. Well, even angrier than I am...

Identity Politics - the politics of division.

[Boiler]

Just heard Claire Fox on Any Questions, which of course is discussing Burnham.

I didn't really notice until now what a horrible voice she has.

[Oboogie]

Johnson said that if he walked on water, the reaction of some media would be to report that he couldn't swim.

I first heard a version of that joke in relation to Nelson Mandela about 35 years ago, I'd forgotten that it originated with Johnson.

I think some people have astonishingly high expectations of Burnham and, as it becomes apparent that he's not the Messiah, inevitably the scales will fall from their eyes.

[Oboogie]

The idea is that the symbolism of the move makes other people (especially in Whitehall) understand that the new PM is serious about devolution. I find it pretty unimpressive that senior civil servants might need this to happen but apparently so.

But is it devolution or is it merely decentralisation? Devolution requires giving power away, if all that's happening is just civil servants dishing out central government policy, the location of their office makes no difference whatsoever.

There's already devolution happening but it's been said that it's moving slowly because. the civil service don't want it to happen, or that Starmer didn't lead them strongly enough. As I say, I find this deeply disappointing if it's true, but lots of people think it's true, and I think you need to see the Manchester office in these terms.

I take your point that there's a difference between devolving power and moving some people out of London, but the two seem to go together in this case, and in terms of Burnham's thinking.

Obviously previous governments have devolved power but which powers has Burnham said he's going to devolve?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Just heard Claire Fox on Any Questions, which of course is discussing Burnham.

I didn't really notice until now what a horrible voice she has.

She's not as nice as she sounds.

[Oboogie]

And will every other region have the same help?

Guess.
If I was Welsh or Cornish I'd be fucking angry now. Well, even angrier than I am...

Identity Politics - the politics of division.

Why single out Wales and Cornwall? He's the PM of the UK and should be governing for the entire nation.

There was a fascinating programme on Radio 4 yesterday discussing the history of the North South divide and pointing out the flaws with the simplistic drawing of a line across the map.

Here's the link. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002z66n

[Tubby Isaacs]

Most people understand "the North" as political shorthand. It's part of a strategy focussed on fighting Reform. Starmer got lots of unfair criticism, in my view, for not prioritizing liberal voters. I think there's a certain amount of class prejudice in Reform-curious voters being irredeemably lost. Why don't people say "you can't outGreen the Greens?"

Burnham certainly had a good result in Makerfield. He's kept Mahmood on. He's trying to do what was scornfully called by the media, Blue Labour. He's a more convincing frontman for that than Starmer.

[Oboogie]

Most people understand "the North" as political shorthand.

Do they? I'd love to see some evidence of that claim.
As someone who has lived in the North and the South my anecdotal experience is that most people adhere to tired and inaccurate biases.

[Boiler]

I'm sure it, like so many things, depends on your position. For me, "the North" refers to "the North of England" and from here I take that to be from Lancashire and Yorkshire northwards.

[davidjay]

A bit more accuracy would be welcome. It's not Downing Street North, it's Downing Street Manchester.

[Oboogie]

I'm sure it, like so many things, depends on your position. For me, "the North" refers to "the North of England" and from here I take that to be from Lancashire and Yorkshire northwards.

Well, Haltwhistle in Northumberland is the halfway point of Britain so, geographically speaking, Manchester's in the South.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Northumbria is north, Wales is west, Mercia is middle, Wessex is south and East Anglia is just a bit odd.

[Andy McDandy]

Just heard Claire Fox on Any Questions, which of course is discussing Burnham.

I didn't really notice until now what a horrible voice she has.

Ditto Julie Burchill, Tony Parsehole, Toby Young, Michael Gove...

[Tubby Isaacs]

Most people understand "the North" as political shorthand.

Do they? I'd love to see some evidence of that claim.
As someone who has lived in the North and the South my anecdotal experience is that most people adhere to tired and inaccurate biases.

North-South divide is surely an established way of thinking about the country, while at the same time people know that Harrogate is rich and Luton isn't.

The problem I have with it is how Andy runs with it. If it's a nostalgic view, as he's hinted sometimes, that the problem is not enough factories, then we'll not get very far.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm sure it, like so many things, depends on your position. For me, "the North" refers to "the North of England" and from here I take that to be from Lancashire and Yorkshire northwards.

There are official definitions of where regions start and finish. These would suggest that the North starts pretty much where you think it does, which is what I'd have said. The only difference is that Cheshire is in the North West as well, and the region is Yorkshire and Humber, which would put North Lincolnshire into the North.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Northumbria is north, Wales is west, Mercia is middle, Wessex is south and East Anglia is just a bit odd.

Northumbria, now I look, went pretty far into Scotland, but yeah. And Cumbria was Celtic for longer than the rest of Northern England.

I wonder if Cumbria might have been better being put in with the modern North East region, and called something like Far North. It seems to fit more there than with Manchester and Liverpool.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

The point I was sort-of alluding to is that in the formative past each of those kingdoms/earldoms/regions had individual and different societies, laws and even languages. There has not been time for those differences to be fully eroded.
And certainly Cumbria (Strathclyde) - and some of what is now lowland Scotland - carry very Northumbrian dna.

[Boiler]

Fascinating. I had no idea Mercia was so large...

[kreuzberger]

The norf is anywhere beyond "Hatfield and the..", and unquestionably in the badlands on the wrong side of Watford Gap.

Going in the other direction, I believe Leicester plays a pivotal role.

On the other hand, Bath City fans sing "you dirty northern bastards" to Gloucester United fans.

A reasonable person would therefore conclude that it's all bollocks, unless you draw a line between where it's raining and it might soon.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I hope this is correct, though given the outlet, it probably isn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... tion-rules

Existing care workers could be exempt from UK’s tough new immigration rules
Exclusive: Andy Burnham thought to be considering waiving stricter right to remain rules for people already working in the sector

Put crudely, to lots of voters, men who arrive on small boats are bad. Women who came over to do care work are good. If we're going to keep Shabana, we can happily smooth off a few edges like this. Now relax the hit on foreign students.

Also bringing the reporting date for the Casey Report forward. 2028 was far too late to report- you could have got Geoff Boycott and Chris Tavare to finish it quicker than that.