[davidjay]

The time for a "proper debate" on immigration was twenty years ago. That ship has long sailed and the general belief now is that we take more immigrants than any other country and they come here for the most generous benefits in the world. Debunking those myths is the only way the government has got any hope of a proper, humane and morally decent solution to the problem.

[The Weeping Angel]

Some interesting points about the care visas made here, by someone not at all happy about the overall language or policies.

Short version- the system inherited is terrible, and there were loads of people ripped off by rogue organisations who want to work in care and haven't been able to. The Government is actually getting them into care jobs.

Which again raises the question. How has Starmer managed to contrive overwhelming liberal-left opposition from all of this?

https://bsky.app/profile/lukepiper.bsky ... lovbb35fuc

Well, Starmer's speech didn't help matters. At the same time, I feel that with a segment of left-liberal opinion just won't accept anything less than immigration is good.

[Abernathy]

Well, I'd say that I'm part of that segment of left-liberal opinion, and I do take the view that inward immigration to the UK is overwhelmingly a very good thing. But I also recognise that in a 21st century in which movements of people from multiple locii to other more prosperous/safer/ cooler/ richer in water resources locii (of which the UK is one), some basic and robust controls on immigration levels is required.

It's just that the exploitation of that by right-wing , lying, racist grifters to win power via the votes of simpletons makes my skin crawl.

[mattomac]

I’m a bit disappointed about the Russell Group obsession when it comes to Universities, then again I wonder if the lower universities they talk about are these ones set up on a whim when the Conservatives opened the market.

[The Weeping Angel]

Panic. Probably not just at Reform, but also at the Democrats and other Labour-type parties losing support over immigration to populist parties. It's often said that those various Labour-type parties all did it wrong by moving right on immigration, but I don't really see many examples of parties who didn't and then romped home in elections. The nearest anyone has in Sanchez is Spain, but last time I checked he was behind in the polls despite the economy doing well.

Ian Dunt's got a great idea just don't have any borders.

[The Weeping Angel]

Dan Hodges's thinks Starmer's speech was politically insane.

[NevTheSweeper]

Labour has gone full fascist. All to appeal to mythical white working class Red Wall voters. Even sympathetic commentators have had enough. MPs are in turmoil. They seem determined to make things worse for EVERYONE. The news media have bitten Starmer's hand, but will not let go. In 2029 Labour will be gone.

[Youngian]

Dan Hodges's thinks Starmer's speech was politically insane.

That's a wise take. "Dingys, hotels, illegals" are the rabid runaway obsessions. No one has been hitting on Philippino carers.

[Crabcakes]

Labour has gone full fascist. All to appeal to mythical white working class Red Wall voters. Even sympathetic commentators have had enough. MPs are in turmoil. They seem determined to make things worse for EVERYONE. The news media have bitten Starmer's hand, but will not let go. In 2029 Labour will be gone.

Labour have a presentation problem where reasonable policies come over as far worse than they are, and some policies could have done with longer in the oven. No denying that.

However, to say they ‘have gone fascist’ when you look over at what’s happening in the US is in very poor taste.

[NevTheSweeper]

Labour has gone full fascist. All to appeal to mythical white working class Red Wall voters. Even sympathetic commentators have had enough. MPs are in turmoil. They seem determined to make things worse for EVERYONE. The news media have bitten Starmer's hand, but will not let go. In 2029 Labour will be gone.

Labour have a presentation problem where reasonable policies come over as far worse than they are, and some policies could have done with longer in the oven. No denying that.

However, to say they ‘have gone fascist’ when you look over at what’s happening in the US is in very poor taste.

Fair point. The US is way ahead of us in that respect.

[NevTheSweeper]

Labour has gone full fascist. All to appeal to mythical white working class Red Wall voters. Even sympathetic commentators have had enough. MPs are in turmoil. They seem determined to make things worse for EVERYONE. The news media have bitten Starmer's hand, but will not let go. In 2029 Labour will be gone.

Labour have a presentation problem where reasonable policies come over as far worse than they are, and some policies could have done with longer in the oven. No denying that.

However, to say they ‘have gone fascist’ when you look over at what’s happening in the US is in very poor taste.

Fair point. The US is way ahead of us in that respect.

[Crabcakes]

What bugs me about the recent policy announcements is that a better version - and one where Labour set the agenda - is very simple to see and with barely any changes to actual policy.

For example, “overseas care home staff ban” makes it about immigration, is in appearance pursuing Reform voters after local elections where Reform did well, and makes it look like their issues and talking points are genuine rather than simple anti-immigrant rhetoric. It’s daft as they will never get those votes anyway, and they will never satisfy Reform because they will just shift the goalposts - when all immigrants have gone it will be the fault of some other minority group, and when they’re all gone it will be the fault of ‘traitors’, and so on.

Instead, it could have been “Labour unveil massive training and upskilling programme to fill care staff gaps with homegrown talent and reduce reliance on agency staff and needing overseas recruitment to plug gaps”. The focus is on creating jobs, giving people skills, saving money, investing in our economy and our NHS and - as an aside that doesn’t even mention immigration - lowering the need for people to come in from overseas.

That’s the agenda that a government with a big majority should be setting, and I’m bewildered that they’re not when the goals are wide open.

[Killer Whale]

“Labour unveil massive training and upskilling programme to fill care staff gaps with homegrown talent and reduce reliance on agency staff and needing overseas recruitment to plug gaps”.

Yeahbbut what about the small boats and the rape gangs?

There's two things going on. Firstly, people feel that the economy is stagnant and any small gains are not coming their way. The only way this feeling will pass is if the economy grows and tax changes make it clear that the richest are not creaming off all the gains. This is not a short term project, and the risk is that external factors may see it not happen until after the next general election. If that happens, Labour are fucked.
Secondly, social media has radically changed the way that people get news and information. If you thought the lies and partial truths of the Sun, the Mail and the Express were a danger to democracy, you should see some of the outrageous shit that is shared, largely behind the backs of people like you and me, on Facebook and YouTube, let alone the hardcore cesspit sites. This is normal people like your next door neighbours that have been sucked into a world where all politicians have caused the problems we have through either lack of common sense or outright criminal activity and the only solution is therefore to get rid of an entire political class.
No mere policy announcement is going to get around these massive factors influencing public opinion. An economic turnaround might distract the electorate from populist fantasy, but it is going to have to start soon.