[Oboogie]

No, they just absorbed the attitude every day of their lives. South Yorkshire pit villages circa 1984 were not renowned for their cosmopolitan atmosphere. Although in fairness, they also thought of gay people as effeminate, weak, and promiscuous, as well as evil.

That's correct, and it wasn't exclusive to miners or South Yorkshire. However discrimination was illegal and it certainly wasn't taught as part of any industrial training. Much of British society and the law have moved on in the last forty years the outposts of homophobia remain, of course, but they are largely restricted to aged football hooligans and religious fruitloops.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Think it's highly unlikely that the majority of voters of these Gaza Independent MPs are anything but, shall we say, highly gender critical. And there's also the dynamic of "community leaders" and the like. But that doesn't mean that Queers For Palestine won't have impressed some, particularly younger, activists, who may be less than enthusiastic about the aforesaid community leaders. I'd expect some of these younger activists to prefer the Green Party. So in that sense it probably will be a nuisance for the Gaza Independents who didn't have to worry about this issue (or any other) at the election. Won't be true at the next one.

[davidjay]

Old school, working class bigotry. Or "social conservatism", as the linguistic whitewashers would repackage it.

Or Old Labour as a lot of Reform voters would say.

[Oboogie]

Further signs of a lack of unity in YourParty.

"Gaza activists attack Corbyn after he refuses to say he is an anti-Zionist"

https://www.thejc.com/news/politics/gaz ... t-kitc82us

[davidjay]

Further signs of a lack of unity in YourParty.

"Gaza activists attack Corbyn after he refuses to say he is an anti-Zionist"

https://www.thejc.com/news/politics/gaz ... t-kitc82us

Left or right, you'll never be extreme enough for some.

[Oboogie]

Further signs of a lack of unity in YourParty.

"Gaza activists attack Corbyn after he refuses to say he is an anti-Zionist"

https://www.thejc.com/news/politics/gaz ... t-kitc82us

Left or right, you'll never be extreme enough for some.

Some are saying on Bluesky that you can't be anti-racist unless you are anti-Zionist, ergo Corbyn is a racist. Fuck me, they'll be saying Labour were right to expel him next!

[Boiler]

What does the jury think?

https://thegazatribunal.uk/watch

[Tubby Isaacs]

"Tribunal".

[Crabcakes]

Further signs of a lack of unity in YourParty.

"Gaza activists attack Corbyn after he refuses to say he is an anti-Zionist"

https://www.thejc.com/news/politics/gaz ... t-kitc82us

On the one hand this is clearly all bonkers. On the other, imagine how furious Corbyn must be to be labelled not right on enough.

He’s been a *life-long* campaigner against things, don’t you know?

[Tubby Isaacs]

This is what you get when you elevate one issue like they have. It's literally the only thing some people in the party will be interested in, and it's going to be hard to keep them all happy.

The Greens are going to slaughter Your Party.

[Abernathy]

The Greens are going to slaughter Your Party.

Yes, I think that’s probably correct. Particularly with Zac Wotsischops stealing Corbyn’s clothes ( and probably doing a better job of it).

[Tubby Isaacs]

Polanski might lose some of the North Herefordshire type Greens to the Lib Dems, but I think he'll make them more coherent, with stuff that'll appeal to a lot of people in seats where the Greens are already second. What do Corbyn and the Gaza Independent voters have in common apart from Gaza? The Independent MPs aren't from firebrand backgrounds, and look like they are taking representing the wider electorate seriously, engaging with local businesses etc. Are they going to be happy with the wider Corbyn agenda?

Steve Baker had a lot of Muslim constituents in High Wycombe and says he had pretty good relations with them, and reckon he got about 30% votes from them (in a good year for his party). Perhaps this is a personal vote- if you're a Muslim in Britain, you'll probably appreciate an MP who makes a proper effort with you- but I'd guess at least part of it was that there was some regular conservatism in the community that Baker could work with. Small business owners are an obvious example of that.

[Tubby Isaacs]

One of the relatively rare good posters BTL on the Guardian came up with this point in response to Owen Jones attacking Starmer. Good, I thought.

Strange Owen’s list of disasters has no mention of the most significant anti immigrant and flag waving campaign, with the most severe consequences, and Farage’s previous personal victory.

The Brexit referendum of course was sold on ending freedom of movement and sticking two fingers up to all those foreign rules.

How did Labour do on countering that narrative, back when it was supposedly “proper” Labour? Not so well, as I remember. After the Blair/Brown years of basically ignoring the simmering resentment over immigration, we suddenly had the Tories making completely unrealistic promises on controlling it and then the referendum.

You might say that Corbyn’s lacklustre pitch of “Remain and Reform”, complete with plenty of criticism for the EU accepted much of right wing narrative. He barely mentioned freedom of movement or immigration. Until after the result when his position was that freedom of movement had to go.

I guess it’s not so easy to strongly oppose a significant number of the people you are relying on to vote for you?

That’s not to say Labour shouldn’t counter the anti immigration rhetoric, I think they should, but I’m not buying the supposed extent that it’s supposedly Starmer’s fault for enabling it. They are trying to show they take people’s concerns seriously, but their position is nowhere near those who are really whipping people up into a frenzy over it. I honestly don’t know how to stop the global wave of nationalist shite, but I’m not convinced that Owen’s suggestions would do much to stem the tide of anger and resentment.

Even harder for the government to do the “obvious” thing and just make everything better for everyone given the state everything is in. I seriously doubt that everything can be fixed just by taxing the rich more. That could be part of the way forward, but I don’t believe in silver bullet solutions. Not those peddled by Farage, nor many on the left.

Things are complicated, everything has consequences and downsides. If there were easy answers to make everything better, surely there’d be a government somewhere that’s tried them and eliminated all these problems. But there doesn’t seem to be.

[The Weeping Angel]

I've seen the sentiment expressed a lot on Bluesky that Labour is boosting Reform by talking about immigration.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Like Reform and the media would shut up about it otherwise?

Seems of the stuff like Starmer’s speech has been terrible and probably lost support to the Lib Dems and Greens but that’s a different point.

[davidjay]

I've seen the sentiment expressed a lot on Bluesky that Labour is boosting Reform by talking about immigration.

Because not talking about it did a lot of good.