Mailwatch(ed) Forum

Tubby Isaacs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:46 pm Ah god, not this again. Had a run in with a Corbynite on facebook about "points based immigration system" a while back. I asked him what sort of system he wanted instead, a lottery? Abolition of visa requirements? I got no reply.

Also having a points based immigration system has been party policy since 2010

RedSparrows wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:48 pm I don't think he's racist but I do think it's a stupid, unhelpful thing to say. Disappointing.

How so?

I can remember in the Summer Allison Pearson at the Telegraph was losing her shit when she discovered that a lot of British students were missing out on medical degrees because some university were allowing in lots more foreign students onto their courses. A number of academics pointed out to her that under the present system of funding a British student would only be paying £9000 a year to study for a medical degree but it was possible to charge foreign students over a year £30,000 for the same course. In effect the Foreign students were basically subsidising the British students because training a doctor costs far more than £9000 a year.
The governments needs to address this problem otherwise we will never train the number of doctors we will need in order to keep up with the demand in the NHS.

Saying we've recruited too much for abroad for the NHS. Who cares? And there's no way that those positions are going to be filled domestically. Better to talk about improving recruitment and retention.

The rest of the stuff the bloke kicks off about is basically bollocks. Especially that "just like UKIP", when his own preview shows UKIP were arguing for zero net migration. That sort of "points based immigration system" isn't like one where net migration is 300,000 a year.

satnav wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 9:38 pm I can remember in the Summer Allison Pearson at the Telegraph was losing her shit when she discovered that a lot of British students were missing out on medical degrees because some university were allowing in lots more foreign students onto their courses. A number of academics pointed out to her that under the present system of funding a British student would only be paying £9000 a year to study for a medical degree but it was possible to charge foreign students over a year £30,000 for the same course. In effect the Foreign students were basically subsidising the British students because training a doctor costs far more than £9000 a year.
The governments needs to address this problem otherwise we will never train the number of doctors we will need in order to keep up with the demand in the NHS.

Yep. And people like her also hate lots of the arts courses for home students that cross subsidize.

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:33 pm

Tubby Isaacs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:46 pm Ah god, not this again. Had a run in with a Corbynite on facebook about "points based immigration system" a while back. I asked him what sort of system he wanted instead, a lottery? Abolition of visa requirements? I got no reply.

Also having a points based immigration system has been party policy since 2010

Here's the 2017 policy.

Working together we will institute a
new system which is based on our
economic needs, balancing controls
and existing entitlements. This may
include employer sponsorship, work
permits, visa regulations or a tailored
mix of all these which works for the
many, not the few.

That's a points based immigration system.

Generally speaking, it's all a question of whether Labour stills see Jilly Cooper's Definately Distgustings (Clinton's Deplorables) as their natural constituency.

That shit runs us back forty years to that horror-tribe voting National Font at the drop of a hat. They are scum. Hateful.

Wikipedia clarifys :

Between 2008 and 2010, the United Kingdom phased in a points-based immigration system for regulating immigration from outside the European Economic Area. The Economist reports that the system did not evolve into a points-based system like that of Australia or Canada due to the numerous special exemptions carved out by various interest groups, and subsequent slashing of immigration under the Tory government.[2] However, speciailty based immigration is open in the United Kingdom. Upon exiting the European Union in 2021, the U.K. implemented a single points based immigration system for all applicants.[20]

So not only has it been Labor's policy since 2010, it was actually implemented by Labour in government for non-EU immigration in 2008.. I believe Liam Byrne was the minister responsible at the time. Nobody ever seems to acknowledge this.

That's certainly the time when you first heard about this stuff in the UK. But that gives the impression that there was some sort of free for all for non-EU immigration in the past, which I find very hard to believe. If that were the case, you'd have expected far more immigration than actually happened just from India alone, never mind the rest of the world.

The most disappointing thing for me is it’s effectively saying a points system would fill the skills gap but then he added this other layer that just sounds a bit nasty.

Wasn’t a need for it if he fronted up with the points system and explained how it’s been Labour Policy in the old Labour government.

We are probably two years away from an election manifesto. We've seen what happens - the Tories steal our pants. So we need to keep our powder dry until we see the whites of their eyes.

Tubby Isaacs wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:22 pm That's certainly the time when you first heard about this stuff in the UK. But that gives the impression that there was some sort of free for all for non-EU immigration in the past, which I find very hard to believe. If that were the case, you'd have expected far more immigration than actually happened just from India alone, never mind the rest of the world.

Good point. Of course, that there was some kind of free-for-all, "open door" immigration policy in place prior to the points system implemented by Labour (or even after that implementation) is precisely the impression that the Daily Mail etc want to convey. What there was was a set of rigid (and pretty complex) immigration rules that applied to each and every visa application from outwith the EU. People coming to the UK from EU member states were exercising treaty rights, so were not subject to the normal immigration rules (otherwise known as "freedom of movement"). I've argued before that technically speaking, people coming to the UK from other EU member states, exercising treaty rights so to do, isn't actually "immigration" at all, but no cunt listened to me.

Also bear in mind that "Australian style", particularly in the Murdoch media, carries connotations. No mucking abaaht, no poofters, massive prawns, white.

Very good piece on "the migrant crisis" in yesterday's Observer from Nesrine Malik :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... E5usp82_Gk

This is a good point re: Starmer’s statement on training more NHS staff in the UK. Under a different, more bearded and jam-obsessed leader the exact same statement would doubtless have been applauded.



(NB it’s the 2nd tweet with the link - not quite sure why the first one has also embedded!)

Umm...

I thought that the 'developed' countries stripping the qualified personnel from 'developing' countries (bear with me on that) was a bad thing?

Or is there some more subtle argument about India training doctors who then go to work in the UK that I'm not getting?

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:56 pm Umm...

I thought that the 'developed' countries stripping the qualified personnel from 'developing' countries (bear with me on that) was a bad thing?

Or is there some more subtle argument about India training doctors who then go to work in the UK that I'm not getting?

Some of the people who'll be complaining about Starmer "dogwhistling" now will also have ranted about "poaching" foreign staff, so you're not missing anything. They're as contradictory as ever.

On the effects of "poaching", I think there's some evidence that the original country benefits too. It's above my paygrade, but I assume this reflects things like remittances being sent back "home", which can be considerable by local standards. And there's not a shortage of people in, say, India who can work as care assistants but there may be a lack of money in India to employ them. And I would think that having people from eg India take a course and go on to earn good money abroad would spur investment in the course.

Gabriel Milland on Twitter was saying that one issue that has real cut through is scrapping nurses bursaries. Loads of people have noticed it and really don't like it. I doubt they're thinking in terms of foreigners taking jobs, just that it seems unfair. Starmer restoring them could be a nice vote winner.

Really baffled me at the time and I mention it whenever the recruitment numbers are low. Which seems every year.

On origin countries. I haven't read it.