Mailwatch(ed) Forum

The next election is on FPTP, they might even get Tory support if Reform snatch their votes and they collapse.

Where’s Labour’s fervour? Can you imagine a crowd chanting ‘Oh Keir Starmer’?
Andrew Fisher

I can't imagine them chanting "Oh John Major" either but the 14m votes in 1992 are still a record.

Please, no more referenda, on any subject, ever.

davidjay wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:54 pm Please, no more referenda, on any subject, ever.

Not even one for rejoining the Single Market & Customs Union, ten years from now?

Or PR?

Remember the last voting system referendum? That times a thousand.

Naffink wrong wiv it, it's simple and it works, worrabout money for soljaz and ickle kiddies at Great Ormond Street, Labour can't win* so they have to rig the system etc.

*Never mind that if Labour moot it, they'll have had to have won** an election under FPTP....

**The fuck do you call that tense?

Past historic subjunctive?

Tubby Isaacs wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:24 am

Where’s Labour’s fervour? Can you imagine a crowd chanting ‘Oh Keir Starmer’?
Andrew Fisher

I can't imagine them chanting "Oh John Major" either but the 14m votes in 1992 are still a record.

It should also be worth looking at Andrew Fisher's resignation letter and see what he says about the Corbyn project.

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:48 pm Past historic subjunctive?

Google has had to have come up woefully inadequate on this one (wipes sweat), so I will go with a variant of "past conditional" plus an imperative for good measure.

What a joy it is that we don't need to learn this shite but, back in the day, I had a German grammar bog-book. It was a life saver.

While we are off topic, I used to love the so-called "present historic" with all its pregnancy and anticipation and which is still in favour with BBC In our time.

"And then he shags Cleopatra", for example.

Now, it just gets on my nerves. Too clever-clever by half.

kreuzberger wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:28 pm

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:48 pm Past historic subjunctive?

Google has had to have come up woefully inadequate on this one (wipes sweat), so I will go with a variant of "past conditional" plus an imperative for good measure.

What a joy it is that we don't need to learn this shite but, back in the day, I had a German grammar bog-book. It was a life saver.

While we are off topic, I used to love the so-called "present historic" with all its pregnancy and anticipation and which is still in favour with BBC In our time.

"And then he shags Cleopatra", for example.

Now, it just gets on my nerves. Too clever-clever by half.

All we nee now is "these days".

These days, they'll throw you in jail for saying you're English

Europe is a hard one.

If you have the majority on the voting system go for it, I don’t think there is a party at Westminister bar the Tories against it. Reform, UKIP and the like are for it.

Of course the dream of it electing utopian progressive governments is a dream.

Then again this current lot couldn’t more resemble the usual idiotic right wing ones you get across Europe.

In fact it’s more insane than them.

The most obvious explanation for this would seem to be that UKIP dropped out, and their vote went to the Tories. Not to mention the complication of two independents.

But some other people have a theory. This chap comes from Ystradganlais. Perhaps Sir Keir could turn up on the picket line there? Anybody notice a problem?

From what other people say, it's not the most obvious strike-friendly part of the Redcar area.

I'd want to know about the two Independents before drawing any conclusions.

Not 100% sure if this belongs here or elsewhere, but here is a very amusing summary of all Aaron Bastani's most useless hot-takes in 2022 (hint: he really doesn't like Keir Starmer at all, does he?).

Amusingly, Owen Jones and even Bastani himself grace us with personal appearances in the comments

A totally normal response

So, anyway, Happy New Year, again. And this now looks like the time is coming whereby anyone can't be too convincing with the velvety, chocolatey platitudes about "grown up government" rather than something about allotments.

The "not-Jez!!11!!!" argument is done and dusted and, as most know, an 8-pice socket-set would have won that against the dying embers of a self-styled firebrand. It is becoming increasingly clear, though, that Labour cannot and will not lead the country to even a shadow of its maximum potential without, at the very least, carving out a role within the Single Market.

Without exports of any note and / or a healthcare system which plays its part in pan-continental labour decisions, all for a laughable take on Disneyfied independence, the country might as well recast its red, white, and blue as is tyrannically flown over Pyongyang. Isolation is neither hard nor grown up.

With any luck, and a following wind, I will be German by the time push comes to shove but, someone please tell me this; why the fuck is Starmer running scared of everything for which he - rather nobly - fought the back half of the last decade?

I refer you once again to the late Roy Jenkins’ vivid description of the Labour Party in the run-up to the 1997 election as a man carrying a priceless porcelain vase along a very long corridor with a highly polished floor. The metaphor is also highly germane as we approach the next election. After what will probably by then have been 13 or 14 years of ruinous Tory rule, Labour is under immense pressure, and has a gargantuan responsibility, not to blow this one, and is very nervous of anything that could lead to that.

Although Labour is currently well placed with a lead of 26 points at what is still only the mid-term of this government, we know that that is very likely to narrow as we get closer to the election. Labour still needs a margin of victory of 12 percentage points just to secure a working majority of one seat, so things are tighter than they seem. Anything that puts that at risk, and I do mean anything, has to be eliminated from Starmer’s strategy, and this includes any kind of explicit pre-election pledge to undo Brexit, re-join the European Single Market, or restore freedom of movement . Hence the explicit commitment to rule out any of these things for the first term of the new Labour government. The Tories would relish the opportunity to re-litigate the toxic “will of the the people” arguments all over again. In fact, doing so may represent their best, or even only chance of avoiding heavy defeat.

It’s difficult for committed Europhile Labour-supporting people such as you and I to grasp this, but this necessarily strategic move is absolutely essential. If we do not get into government, nothing else is possible other than ever more crap Tory Brexit and 5 more years of wanton damage, lies, and xenophobia. It’s also worth remembering that ruling out explcitly any attempt at Brexit reversal for Labour’s first term reflects only the reality of the situation the new government will face. It does not rule out active initiatives to improve and re-build the UK’s relationship with the EU, and re-aligning the UK’s standards and regulations with those of the EU -in itself a pre-requisite for any future attempt to apply to re-join the EU. That would certainly be on Labour’s agenda in subsequent government terms, but it cannot be part of Labour’s bid to win government at this election. Everything, absolutely everything, is focused intensively on that objective.

It’s difficult for committed Europhile Labour-supporting people such as you and I to grasp this

I really don't think it's that difficult.

I few momentumists are making a massive stink on social media and picket lines and rejoining.
The last is a real irony given their icon, Saint Jerry's - dislike for the EU.
They also ape Saint Jerry in their utter lack of game, always picking the most irritating scab, when Labour needs to simply focus on a few key infrastructure issues.
(Steady as she goes, some pledges to restore the NHS and infrastructure; demonstrate that the extremists are the guys in blue, not us(.

The momentumists ought to look at the twats from Extinction Rebellion.
Even they are talking about dialling it down.
Who'd have thoughts that inconveniencing the general public, and anti social behaviour might be counter-productive campaigning strategies?

Bones McCoy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:49 pm

It’s difficult for committed Europhile Labour-supporting people such as you and I to grasp this

I really don't think it's that difficult.

Nor do I. I was, however, responding to Kreuzberger’s bewildered cry of anguish. Which (I’m sure you realise) is qualitatively different from the various Corbynite fuckwits you cite. Quite a lot of other Labour people on social media are also failing (sometimes quite belligerently) to get it.

Abernathy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:42 pm

Bones McCoy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:49 pm

It’s difficult for committed Europhile Labour-supporting people such as you and I to grasp this

I really don't think it's that difficult.

Nor do I. I was, however, responding to Kreuzberger’s bewildered cry of anguish. Which (I’m sure you realise) is qualitatively different from the various Corbynite fuckwits you cite. Quite a lot of other Labour people on social media are also failing (sometimes quite belligerently) to get it.

Good context.
I do struggle to read the threads in context in our forum, so appreciate the "extra information".