Mailwatch(ed) Forum

This will probably be used against Labour

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

Sir Tony Blair was warned the Horizon IT system at the centre of the Post Office scandal could be flawed before it was rolled out, a document shows.

A handwritten note from the then-Labour PM, published by the public inquiry on Friday, suggests he raised concerns after being warned the system was "possibly unreliable".

But he said he gave it the go-ahead after being reassured by others.

Among them was Peter Mandelson, who was then his trade and industry secretary.

In a letter dated 10 December 1998, Lord Mandelson said he believed the "only sensible choice" was to proceed with Horizon.

He warned that cancelling the contract would cause "political fallout" from post office closures and damage relations with Fujitsu, which he described as a major investor in the UK.

The letter, and the submission to Sir Tony, were both previously shown in hearings at the inquiry, which was launched in 2021, but have now been published in full.

There was no indication at this stage that the Horizon software would lead to wrongful accusations of theft but there were concerns about its reliability and ballooning cost.

"Possibly unreliable" doesn't sound like the strongest warning ever, really. Unless there's more.

Jesus, is this true?

May 2010
Postal affairs minister Sir Ed Davey, now the Liberal Democrats leader, refuses to meet Alan Bates, saying he did not believe it "would serve any purpose". The pair later meet in October that year.

Snooty old Ed Davey met the bloke 5 months later. I'm guessing there was a fair bit to be getting on with in May, just after the General Election. Not the biggest snub ever, is it? Sure he didn't believe Bates, based no doubt on advice from civil servants who relied on the Post Office. Lib Dems don't get to blame the Civil Service, I guess.

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 5:25 pm I have seen allegations that there was an unacknowledged racism at work; that many of the sub-postmasters being investigated were Asian, and therefore, 'obviously', constantly on the fiddle.
That might explain why no other explanation was sought.

I would be very surprised if there wasn't at least a small element of "We all know what they're like" involved.

“I was lied to”, says Ed.

At the very least, what this demonstrates is that the Lib Dems were, and remain, quite unsuitable to occupy key government posts.

So, it seems, was Tony Blair...

The Post Office lied to everybody and were believed until evidence was produced which cast doubt on their story.

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:47 pm So, it seems, was Tony Blair...

Everything traces back to Tony Blair.
He's become the Alt-Right's go to scapegoat, just as Thatcher was to the Ben Elton (when he did stand-up) generation.

It's remarkable Blair had time to commission all the evil he's credited with.
You'd think that Murdering Lady Di, replacing the Twin Towers framework with Jell-O and re-locating all Saddam's WMDs to Brussels in return for the Olympics - would make for a full-time job.

Was there a point when PO executives and/or Fujitsu staff could have rolled back but decided to lie and work the rest out later? Like a weak sap from a Cohen Bros noir, the lies got bigger and the actions taken to sustain them more wicked.

People have said that they went ahead with prosecutions when they knew there were problems. What should be called the Macbeth approach.

I am in blood
Stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more,
Returning were as tedious as go o'er

Bones McCoy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 8:43 am

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:47 pm So, it seems, was Tony Blair...

Everything traces back to Tony Blair.
He's become the Alt-Right's go to scapegoat, just as Thatcher was to the Ben Elton (when he did stand-up) generation.

It's remarkable Blair had time to commission all the evil he's credited with.
You'd think that Murdering Lady Di, replacing the Twin Towers framework with Jell-O and re-locating all Saddam's WMDs to Brussels in return for the Olympics - would make for a full-time job.

I've not seen anyone blaming Blair yet (give it time!).
The Tories, in their desperation, are blaming Ed Davey anyone would think they're worried about their Blue Wall seats.
And the alt right - in the form of Farage - is going after Starmer.

Ed Davey didn’t do himself any favours in an interview with ITN yesterday. Okay, the interviewer was pushing it possibly too much, but being asked ten times just to say sorry to the victims of the Horizon fit up and persistently refusing to do so left him looking shifty and shitty.

Not a brilliant performance from a party leader, and not good at all for the Lib Dem brand - memories of their sell-out to the Tories revived. Were I a Lib Dem member, I’d be concerned.

Oboogie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 3:19 pm

Bones McCoy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 8:43 am

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:47 pm So, it seems, was Tony Blair...

Everything traces back to Tony Blair.
He's become the Alt-Right's go to scapegoat, just as Thatcher was to the Ben Elton (when he did stand-up) generation.

It's remarkable Blair had time to commission all the evil he's credited with.
You'd think that Murdering Lady Di, replacing the Twin Towers framework with Jell-O and re-locating all Saddam's WMDs to Brussels in return for the Olympics - would make for a full-time job.

I've not seen anyone blaming Blair yet (give it time!).
The Tories, in their desperation, are blaming Ed Davey anyone would think they're worried about their Blue Wall seats.
And the alt right - in the form of Farage - is going after Starmer.

I saw some blaming Blair on Twitter this morning.
That's what prompted me to post.

Abernathy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 3:30 pm Ed Davey didn’t do himself any favours in an interview with ITN yesterday. Okay, the interviewer was pushing it possibly too much, but being asked ten times just to say sorry to the victims of the Horizon fit up and persistently refusing to do so left him looking shifty and shitty.

Not a brilliant performance from a party leader, and not good at all for the Lib Dem brand - memories of their sell-out to the Tories revived. Were I a Lib Dem member, I’d be concerned.

He's probably thinking he's being made to own the whole scandal. But nothing wrong with apologising for his role.

Bones McCoy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 13, 2024 8:43 am

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:47 pm So, it seems, was Tony Blair...

Everything traces back to Tony Blair.
He's become the Alt-Right's go to scapegoat, just as Thatcher was to the Ben Elton (when he did stand-up) generation.

It's remarkable Blair had time to commission all the evil he's credited with.
You'd think that Murdering Lady Di, replacing the Twin Towers framework with Jell-O and re-locating all Saddam's WMDs to Brussels in return for the Olympics - would make for a full-time job.

At least with Thatcher it was while she was in power, and for things she could be directly blamed for. Blair is getting pelters for what was happening a decade after he retired.

It's noteworthy that, although there have been numerous postal ministers over the last 25 years, the only one the Tories, and their enablers, are interested in is the bloke (in post for 2 of the 25 years) who is now leader of a party which is forecast to take a number of seats off them at the next election.
Coincidence?
Maybe?

I expect Ofcom will say it's all fine and dandy.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 76837.html

davidjay wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 10:59 pm

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 5:25 pm I have seen allegations that there was an unacknowledged racism at work; that many of the sub-postmasters being investigated were Asian, and therefore, 'obviously', constantly on the fiddle.
That might explain why no other explanation was sought.

I would be very surprised if there wasn't at kesst a small element of "We all know what they're like" involved.

I've seen it claimed that one of the reasons the system was rushed in without completed testing was because the PO assumed that all the sub postmasters were on the fiddle and they needed centralised software to start to address it. So when it started to show possible widespread fraudulent activity...

That's certainly very plausible.

Is there a timeline on proscecutions anywhere? 700 convictions over 16 years sounds a lot, but there were over 18,000 post offices in 1999 and about 11,600 in 2016. So at any time a pretty small proportion are being prosecuted. So this "it should have been obvious to anyone" (usually in this context Starmer or Ed Davey) isn't particularly convincing. Even if Starmer knew about all the private prosecutions, which I don't expect he did.

This is the governing party in the UK. They might as well put Kelvin McKenzie in charge now. Hoping that voters haven't heard of private prosecutions.

This doesn't look good, if it can be substantiated.