[Malcolm Armsteen]

Just to clarify, a 'pause' is like a truce, a brief cessation of hostilities to bury your dead, before fighting recommences. A ceasefire is a cessation of fighting with the intention of trying not to start again.

[Youngian]

I think it's time for Keir to call for a ceasefire. There is no moral alternative.

Yes, we’re way passed the ‘Tories and the press might call me antisemitic’ stage.
Former Junior Tory defence minister Alan Clarke once remarked that “I done care if one lot of foreigners is fighting another lot of foreigners as long as they pay their bills (for British arms).” That’s where the majority of voters are so Keir may as well do the right thing as it won’t cost him, domestically.

[Abernathy]

A ceasefire is a cessation of fighting with the intention of trying not to start again.

Which is precisely why there is no chance of one happening. Neither the Israelis nor Hamas have any interest in trying not to start slaughtering each other again .

[Oboogie]

A ceasefire does nothing to help the Israeli government or Hamas to achieve their stated objectives. Unless it can be shown to be in their interests, there's no reason for them to call one.

[Malcolm Armsteen]

Quite. But it's a statement of extreme disapproval.

[Andy McDandy]

Yes, we’re way passed the ‘Tories and the press might call me antisemitic’ stage.
Former Junior Tory defence minister Alan Clarke once remarked that “I done care if one lot of foreigners is fighting another lot of foreigners as long as they pay their bills (for British arms).” That’s where the majority of voters are so Keir may as well do the right thing as it won’t cost him, domestically.

Plenty of British people may think so deep down or in private, but don't want to be thought of as antisemitic. Racist against the ragheads, less of an issue.

[The Weeping Angel]

Plenty of British people may think so deep down or in private, but don't want to be thought of as antisemitic

Given what's happened over the last few weeks plenty of people have decided to go full mask off when it comes to Jews.

[kreuzberger]

T'was ever thus, t'was ever this. "Jokes" about tea bags on washing lines? Remarks about thriftiness? Oven-dodgers, ashtrays in Minis?

I grew up in a racist family in a racist community, but the anti-Semitic jokes were off limits, even though I didn't understand why.

It wasn't until my accountant, well after the A-Family had left us, applied his genealogy hobby to his "suspicions" about by lineage, that the artichoke was peeled. Genetically, I am on The Team.

Now, I understand the familial reluctance. Being a Jew in the Commercial Road area was pretty hard going in the 1930s, and fighting the Nazis in the 40s wasn't fighting anti-Semites. Blighty had other things on its mind.

Had Britain lost the war, there is no doubt in my mind that we would have been thrown under (or on to) the bus. "If Adolf Hitler flew in today, they'd send a limousine anyway."

[Boiler]

Kudos for The Clash reference.

[Abernathy]

Peter Kyle has been charged with the Sunday media round this morning, and as you'd expect, has been a safe pair of hands.

He usefully made the point that those crying for Keir Starmer to call for a ceasefire really do need to define just what they mean by a ceasefire, particularly in the context of the avowed objectives of both Hamas and Israel. Calling for a ceasefire may be an expression of extreme disapproval of the attacks, but it's at best no more than a marginal intensification of the extreme disapproval that Starmer has already voiced.

Where Kyle was almost lured into a trap was on the question of Starmer's application of the principle of collective reponsibility. He body-swerved it by insisting that the Israel/ Hamas war is qualitatively different from other issues where breaches of collective shadow cabinet responsibility may have been subject to swift disciplinary action. I really do not think that Starmer wants to be having to sack people like Jess Phillips from the front bench (I think Jess is mistaken in attempting to pile pressure on Starmer over this). I am somewhat disturbed at the way that this seems to being treated as a kind of totally un-necessary, and poorly timed , political virility test for Starmer.

[Oboogie]

I am somewhat disturbed at the way that this seems to being treated as a kind of totally un-necessary, and poorly timed , political virility test for Starmer.

I'm certainly not seeing the same level (or any) criticism of Sunak's failure to call for a ceasefire. Of course the Israeli government and Hamas don't give a monkey's chuff what either of them say, but Sunak's the actual PM so his voice is louder than Starmer's.

[Andy McDandy]

Voters expect the Tories to be shits, and Labour to be purer than pure.

[The Weeping Angel]

I am somewhat disturbed at the way that this seems to being treated as a kind of totally un-necessary, and poorly timed , political virility test for Starmer.

I'm certainly not seeing the same level (or any) criticism of Sunak's failure to call for a ceasefire. Of course the Israeli government and Hamas don't give a monkey's chuff what either of them say, but Sunak's the actual PM so his voice is louder than Starmer's.

it's a sign of how the government have been stripped completely of agency by journalists.

[Oboogie]

it's a sign of how the government have been stripped completely of agency by journalists.

I was actually thinking of social media, all the criticism I've seen is aimed at Starmer, not just from the Corbynistas either, it's fairly common to see comments blaming Starmer for the increase in anti-Semitic attacks and some of the slogans used on anti-Israel marches.

[Abernathy]

Accurate assessment from Rawnsley today :

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ct-in-gaza

[davidjay]

it's a sign of how the government have been stripped completely of agency by journalists.

I was actually thinking of social media, all the criticism I've seen is aimed at Starmer, not just from the Corbynistas either, it's fairly common to see comments blaming Starmer for the increase in anti-Semitic attacks and some of the slogans used on anti-Israel marches.

it's all part of the idea that the Tories only have to do one thing right to win while Labour only have to do one thing wrong to lose.

[Tubby Isaacs]

The media loves party splits, so in that sense it's not surprising that Starmer's getting a lot of attention. But it goes beyond that- people unhappy with Starmer not calling for a ceasefire are virtually all unhappy with Sunak too. Support for a ceasefire isn't limited to the Labour left either.

[Oboogie]

people unhappy with Starmer not calling for a ceasefire are virtually all unhappy with Sunak too.

How do you know that?

[Tubby Isaacs]

How do you know that?

Because Sunak isn't doing it either. That's who the big protest is against- the Government. Not the Leader of the Opposition. The protests wouldn't stop if Starmer supported a cease fire.

[Oboogie]

But that's just it, I don't think I've seen anybody demanding that Sunak calls for ceasefire.