Mailwatch(ed) Forum

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:27 pm

Abernathy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:48 pm “Trans women are women” says Keir Starmer. Uncontentious, you might think, but no, this seems to have rattled Joanne Rowling’s cage big time. Not entirely sure I understand why.

Are trans women women? I dunno. What is a trans woman? It’s a woman who previously was not a woman, but is now.

I don't think anyone (certainly not here and certainly not Jo Rowling) would disagree with that. Her argument is against the idea that a man can change gender simply by asserting that he is now a woman, with no other actions or 'evidence' (such as living as a woman) on his part. This has, apparently, led to men declaring themselves to be trans and then gaining access to women-only spaces (women's refuges etc.), even prisons, where some have, allegedly, committed crimes against women.

And I think that whilst that has happened and it's absolutely unacceptable, the controversy arises when that brush gets used to tar all transpeople, which happens way, way too much.

I can see pretty clearly how the trans community would be bloody belligerent with the continuous comparison to sex criminals, sporting cheats and perverts thrown at them day and daily.

I don't think anyone (certainly not here and certainly not Jo Rowling) would disagree with that. Her argument is against the idea that a man can change gender simply by asserting that he is now a woman, with no other actions or 'evidence' (such as living as a woman) on his part. This has, apparently, led to men declaring themselves to be trans and then gaining access to women-only spaces (women's refuges etc.), even prisons, where some have, allegedly, committed crimes against women.

One example of this was Karen White who was allowed into the women's prison and proceeded to abuse and terrorise the inmates when confronted with evidence of her crimes. TRAs either A dismiss or B as a former moderator on the old forum was prone to do was to proclaim it as no big deal because of dangerous lesbians. No empathy with the victims, no acknowledgement that White shouldn't have been allowed in there in the first just arrogance, dismissal and contempt for the victims.

Prison rape happens. If Karen White had been sent to a male prison, she'd be beating a blowjob out of Andy Dufresne in the laundry. The issue there isn't trans people, but prison culture and endemic violence in the system.

Andy McDandy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:53 am Prison rape happens. If Karen White had been sent to a male prison, she'd be beating a blowjob out of Andy Dufresne in the laundry. The issue there isn't trans people, but prison culture and endemic violence in the system.

It's both.

Andy McDandy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:53 am Prison rape happens. If Karen White had been sent to a male prison, she'd be beating a blowjob out of Andy Dufresne in the laundry. The issue there isn't trans people, but prison culture and endemic violence in the system.

That's exactly the attitude I'm talking about. White was a male born who had a history of sexual violence against women. White then claimed to be a woman and was allowed into a woman's prison where she proceeded to launch sexually assault inmates. White should never have been put into a woman's prison in the first place.

I agree - solitary would be my preference. But the point was, as I said back on page one, not that they were trans or not, but that they were a rapist arsehole who, frankly, would be looking for prey wherever they were held.

Which is perhaps why we should include a manual override.

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:09 pm

Andy McDandy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:53 am Prison rape happens. If Karen White had been sent to a male prison, she'd be beating a blowjob out of Andy Dufresne in the laundry. The issue there isn't trans people, but prison culture and endemic violence in the system.

That's exactly the attitude I'm talking about. White was a male born who had a history of sexual violence against women. White then claimed to be a woman and was allowed into a woman's prison where she proceeded to launch sexually assault inmates. White should never have been put into a woman's prison in the first place.

It's an appalling situation, but would that happen now? If it were purely a matter of self-id, then there would be hundreds of Karen Whites in women's prisons. I wonder if the Karen White disaster was based on the prison getting legal advice that they weren't allowed to refuse.

I think self-id works for most situations. I'm not sure all that many people think it should be the end of the matter for every situation though.

Malcolm Armsteen wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:18 pm Which is perhaps why we should include a manual override.

Is there not one?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

There is provision for any female prisoner - trans or not - to be housed in a men's prison if she's deemed especially dangerous.

It's more complex if she doesn't have a GRC.

In England and Wales, she can only be located in a women's prison if she's had a case conference.

Case conferences are told to watch out for evidence that the offender's decision to transition is related to their sentence length or a way of gaining access to future victims.

The guidelines for managing transgender offenders were rewritten in 2016 after the government commissioned a review.

The report stated: "Any assessment of a transgender offender's risk of reoffending should be based on valid, evidenced factors that relate to that individual, as for any other offender. We have seen no evidence that being transgender is in itself linked to risk. Risk assessments must be free from assumptions or stereotyping."

As I understand it the proposal to allow self-identification is that the right will be absolute. I may have misunderstood.

I'm sure there are people proposing that, but it's surely easy enough to increase situations where self-id is what counts while preserving exceptions like prisons.

Tubby Isaacs wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 4:25 pm

The Weeping Angel wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 2:09 pm

Andy McDandy wrote: ↑Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:53 am Prison rape happens. If Karen White had been sent to a male prison, she'd be beating a blowjob out of Andy Dufresne in the laundry. The issue there isn't trans people, but prison culture and endemic violence in the system.

That's exactly the attitude I'm talking about. White was a male born who had a history of sexual violence against women. White then claimed to be a woman and was allowed into a woman's prison where she proceeded to launch sexually assault inmates. White should never have been put into a woman's prison in the first place.

It's an appalling situation, but would that happen now? If it were purely a matter of self-id, then there would be hundreds of Karen Whites in women's prisons. I wonder if the Karen White disaster was based on the prison getting legal advice that they weren't allowed to refuse.

I think self-id works for most situations. I'm not sure all that many people think it should be the end of the matter for every situation though.

Hopefully it wouldn't. I think Self-ID could work provided there were safeguards and caveats.

I agree. And most of the difficult situations aren't really ones where most trans people spend much- eg prison, really serious sports. As MM said above though, it's very difficult for these difficult situations not to define the whole debate, and that must be very painful for trans people.

These seem like nice people.

Any chance of explaining that post or perhaps, you know, saying why it is relevant?

This is very obviously not "safeguarding 101". How would this work? "Tell me what's wrong, and I'll tell your (possibly not very nice at all) parents"?

She isn't stupid, I don't think. I think the game here is to make meeting trans needs sound absurd. She's corrected BTL by lots of people and has no interest in taking it on board, as far as I can see.

This is Maya Forstater, the lady who inspired the #IStandWithMaya hashtag. One of the heroes of the 'gender critical' crowd.

She's not necessarily stupid, but definitely closed-minded and stubborn when it comes to trans issues. She genuinely believes what she says.

Guaranteed to stop any child asking for help and advice, of course. If they could speak easily to their parents they wouldn't be asking you...

She's trying to infer a clever sounding principle from something to do with trans people by the look of it. It doesn't matter if the principle falls apart with a second's thought.

She knows that her cheerleaders - Rowling included - will assure her that she's right. Unlike all of those silly people who obviously don't care about children like she does.