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Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:54 am
by Abernathy
A considered contribution from Matthew D'Ancona, here.
The mania of the TRAs got us nowhere and did the trans community no favours at all. Politicians dithered, appeased or hid. But the calm expertise of Cass and now the juristic wisdom of the Supreme Court have offered a path forward.
It is a path of civility, rooted in clinical experience and jurisprudence rather than ideology. It takes account of rights old and new and deploys calm and measured language to achieve clarity, but also to reassure those who feel vulnerable, disenfranchised or humiliated. It is the splendid opposite of the polarised, performative politics that is now so dominant, on right and left.
There aren’t many reasons at present to feel that Britain is leading the way – but this is one of them. It is how democracies survive and prosper. It plots a route out of screaming matches, virtue signalling and tribalism. It calls upon us all to be decent, adult, mindful of evidence rather than decibels, clicks and smug assumptions.
This is, in other words, that rarest of things: a moment of authentic opportunity. Let’s not squander it.
https://archive.is/20250421230534/https ... et-so-bad/

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 10:55 am
by Abernathy
A considered contribution from Matthew D'Ancona, here.
The mania of the TRAs got us nowhere and did the trans community no favours at all. Politicians dithered, appeased or hid. But the calm expertise of Cass and now the juristic wisdom of the Supreme Court have offered a path forward.
It is a path of civility, rooted in clinical experience and jurisprudence rather than ideology. It takes account of rights old and new and deploys calm and measured language to achieve clarity, but also to reassure those who feel vulnerable, disenfranchised or humiliated. It is the splendid opposite of the polarised, performative politics that is now so dominant, on right and left.
There aren’t many reasons at present to feel that Britain is leading the way – but this is one of them. It is how democracies survive and prosper. It plots a route out of screaming matches, virtue signalling and tribalism. It calls upon us all to be decent, adult, mindful of evidence rather than decibels, clicks and smug assumptions.
This is, in other words, that rarest of things: a moment of authentic opportunity. Let’s not squander it.
https://archive.is/20250421230534/https ... et-so-bad/

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 12:46 pm
by Tubby Isaacs
That reminds me a bit of the Viz cartoon Victor Mature. It's easy to say how sensible we are.

I don't see any clear way forward. What compromise can there be between people who want trans women to use women's changing rooms, and people who don't? Or between people who support the availability of puberty blockers, and those who don't? There simply isn't an evidence base accepted by both sides, least of all Cass. It's been accepted by Labour and the SNP in respective governments, but that's not the same thing.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 1:54 pm
by Abernathy
This might be a bit tangential, but have you ever considered what the thinking behind gender (or sex) segregated changing rooms, toilets, or other facilities is, or was? Is it just to spare peoples' blushes, or is it about a fundamental fear or risk of sexual assaults, principally by males perpetrated on females?

If the latter, has it got a bit out of hand? Has it been exacerbated almost beyond all reason by the continuing public angst around gender identity ? I'm not saying that it definitely has. Just considering the possibility.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 2:34 pm
by Tubby Isaacs
I don't think it makes much difference really. If enough people are strongly against people with male genitalia changing in women's facilities then they're against it and hard to get away from it. You can persuade some women, no doubt, with "the real issue is male violence, not trans women" but probably not that much. I don't see how these two positions can compromise at all.

I don't know if there's some way forward on an issue by issue basis. Women's toilets, I presume, are lots of sit down loos. Trans women using those seems to be a much easier thing to argue for than trans women in women's changing rooms, where (if they're anything like men's changing rooms) there are a couple of cubicles but mostly it's changing in an open space. My guess is that "issue by issue" will satisfy even fewer people.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 2:37 pm
by Tubby Isaacs
I've been wondering if there's some sort of philosophical way forward whereby trans people are thought of as "sui generis", But I read a post (reposted by Jonathan Portes, who I follow) that strongly rejected the idea that trans people should be shunted off into special facilities like gender neutral toilets, and I could see the point. So I think that's a dead end.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 2:50 pm
by Andy McDandy
I put this to some trans friends. Their reply was broadly "You are who you feel you are, and we can spot a pisstaker from miles away".

Personally I think the entire 'debate' is a load of bollocks, because the real question isn't so much about women's safety or biological definitions, but do wankers feel emboldened enough or that it's socially acceptable to treat anyone they consider weird, like shit in public?

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 3:08 pm
by Tubby Isaacs
I think the cis women's safety aspect is massively overrated, and trans women's safety is overlooked . But if women (as they seem to, though not as much as men) hold this hardline position, I think it is very difficult. I don't think it can be anything but heated.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 4:27 pm
by Crabcakes
You know how loads of those US evangelicals turn out to be the worst people ever?

Well…


Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2025 5:57 pm
by Abernathy
Andy McDandy wrote: Thu Apr 24, 2025 2:50 pm I put this to some trans friends. Their reply was broadly "You are who you feel you are, and we can spot a pisstaker from miles away".

Personally I think the entire 'debate' is a load of bollocks, because the real question isn't so much about women's safety or biological definitions, but do wankers feel emboldened enough or that it's socially acceptable to treat anyone they consider weird, like shit in public?

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:02 pm
by The Weeping Angel
It's worth considering what Jolyon Maugham KC FK had to say about Supreme Court Judgements.



Now, the Good Law Project has a different stance.

https://goodlawproject.org/crowdfunder/ ... 25-04-2025

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 6:37 pm
by Oboogie
How very Trumpian of him.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 9:05 pm
by Abernathy
As ever with these sort of things, it would be good know whether “which disgracefully refused to hear from trans people before its decision” is true - or what it even means. Is the supreme court really obliged to listen to the views of any group with an interest before arriving at a judgement ? I’m not sure that it is. And anyway, is the suggestion that the court would have delivered a different judgement had it but sat down with a few trans folk? I’d suggest not - all day long. This stuff can be so disingenuous.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 9:08 pm
by Malcolm Armsteen
The phrase you were looking for was 'dissimulating bastard'.

The Supreme Court were passing judgement on a point of law, not the feels of any particular group.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2025 11:10 pm
by Andy McDandy
If you can find it, there's some great footage of Dawn Butler vs some Tory idiot, totally and logically destroying the entire toilet police concept.

Basically, FTM trans man. Can't use the men's because they don't have a dick. Can't use the ladies because they look like a man.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 2:54 pm
by Samanfur
The idiot in question was Sir Simon Clarke.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:44 pm
by Tubby Isaacs
Abernathy wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 9:05 pm As ever with these sort of things, it would be good know whether “which disgracefully refused to hear from trans people before its decision” is true - or what it even means. Is the supreme court really obliged to listen to the views of any group with an interest before arriving at a judgement ? I’m not sure that it is. And anyway, is the suggestion that the court would have delivered a different judgement had it but sat down with a few trans folk? I’d suggest not - all day long. This stuff can be so disingenuous.
At first I thought that Maugham was being disingenuous, not for the first time. The Supreme Court is barristers arguing points of law, unless one of the barristers was trans, then you wouldn't expect any trans involvement.

But I did see someone else argue that there were additional representations made by groups with the legal right to make them, which is called "standing". This apparently didn't include any trans people. I don't know whether this is legally suspect or not- I suspect it isn't, but you can see why he might make the point.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 6:00 pm
by Boiler
Andy McDandy wrote: Fri Apr 25, 2025 11:10 pm Basically, FTM trans man. Can't use the men's because they don't have a dick.
Use a cubicle in the men's.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 6:28 pm
by kreuzberger
Boiler wrote: Sat Apr 26, 2025 6:00 pm Use a cubicle in the men's.
That's not going to fly; the traps in UK city centre businesses are usually disgusting or occupied for narcotic purposes. Or both.

Re: The Gender Identity Issue.

Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 6:30 pm
by Tubby Isaacs
Are there cubicles in most changing rooms?